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Dive deep into Google Ads with Rafael from Pilothouse in this insightful episode. Rafael's team handles close to 100 account audits a year, and today he's sharing expert strategies on optimizing ad spend, the nuances of Performance Max vs. traditional shopping ads, and the critical importance of split testing. Whether you're scaling up or fine-tuning your campaigns, this episode offers actionable insights to enhance efficiency and effectiveness in your Google Ads efforts. Tune in to learn from a leading expert how to leverage Google Ads for better ROI.

Recognize any of these Ls in your Google Ads accounts?

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Topics Discussed:

Google Ads, Performance Max, Split Testing, Branded Search, Google Ad Spend, Ad Campaign Optimization, SEO, Digital Marketing Strategies, Ad Experiments, ROI in Advertising, Incrementality, Awareness Keywords.


0:00 - Introduction

2:00 - The Misuse of Branded Search in Google Ads

4:10 - Importance of Split Testing in Google Campaigns

6:50 - Performance Max vs. Standard Shopping: What Works Best?

9:20 - Using Awareness Keywords for Better Conversion

13:20 - How to Save on Branded Searches and Optimize Spend

18:30 - Crafting Effective Google Ads with Education-First Content

22:00 - Branded Search: When to Spend and When to Save

27:00 - Rafael’s Experience at Machu Picchu and Its Impact on Work


#GoogleAds #DigitalMarketing #SEO #PerformanceMax #BrandedSearch #AwarenessKeywords #MarketingTips #DTCPodcast #PilotHouse

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Rafael: You've just been overspending on branded search. Ofthese accounts that I'm auditing, the vast majority of them, their highestspending campaign every single time is branded search. Think about what abranded search is. Somebody typing your brand name and then that first resulton the Google page is going to be a branded ad. If your SEO is very good, youwill own those two to three organic listings underneath that branded ad. Whyare we spending on an ad that people will just click the free version ofdirectly below? Pull back and watch what happens to GA4 organic revenue.Immediately, what most agencies will see is their in-platform branded searchrevenue going down, but what you'll see is that organic revenue is tickingupwards to the exact same degree that you're losing the in-platform revenue.


Eric: Content from real people equals instant credibility foryour brand. Consumers today crave real connections with real people and they'reguarded about who they'll trust. Highly polished branded content simply isn't.Let Minisocial build a network of powerful micro-influencers around your brandwho all know and love your products. They'll create something compelling thatresonates with their audience and deliver it directly to you for use across allyour marketing channels. Yeah, that includes ads. Meet millennials and Gen Zerswhere they're already hanging out, in the feeds of their favorite influencers,and get started with Minisocial. It's all killer, no filler. I'm Eric, I'm herewith Raphael, happens to be my favorite Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, also alead on the Pilot House Google team. Gonna give you some common sense mistakesthat we see people making all the time. Raph, kick it off. How you doing?


Rafael: I'm doing good. I love the Raphael favorite pick on theNinja Turtles. You don't hear that too often. I mean, he's kind of like thegrumpiest of the turtles. He's grumpy, he's complex, and I just realized thathis weapons are not actually stabbing weapons. They're blunted. Size areblunted. They're actually defensive weapons, which is why master splinter gavethem to him. Cause he knew he was a hothead and was like, I can't give this guythe Katana's or we'll have a lot of lawsuits on our hands.


Rafael: So I just learned this the other day, each turtle onthe Ninja turtles. Their weapons are like the antithesis of theirpersonalities. That's great. So, Leonardo, Donatello, all of their weapons areactually in


Eric: Michelangelo, he's the least in control, yet thenunchucks, you have to be the most in control or you'll smack yourself in thehead. I love that meme. What a great way to kick off this podcast.


Rafael: Of course. Yeah. No, we need to do a little bit ofsmall talk on the turtles before we jump into the nitty-gritty here. Awesome.


Eric: Well, hopefully you can weave that metaphor through yourGoogle talk. Let's go.


Rafael: A hundred percent. I will work on that. So yeah, let meintro myself. I've been working at Pilot House for the last five years now.Completely focus on Google ads. We focus pretty heavily on e-comm. I'd say likeprobably 20 percent of our clients are lead gen as well. So we have experiencedin that realm, but really I've just been kind of going deep on e-comm clientsand yeah, wanted to talk about common errors, missed opportunities with Google.Like we were talking about earlier, I think a lot of the Google pods have beena little bit more technical and nuanced. So I wanted to keep this super broad.Anybody with a Google account really can jump in, follow along, and see iftheir ad team is kind of implementing some of these strategies here.


Let's go. Sounds great. Yeah. So, I mean, for context, I'mpretty heavily involved in some of the auditing on our side. So I audit about80 Google accounts a year, so just pulling some of the most common things thatwe see from that. And then the first thing that I wanted to talk about here wasthe importance of split testing. So when you think about the complexity ofGoogle ads as a whole, just the different combinations of campaigns that youcan create. So we have eight different campaign types. It's like 10 to 15different bid strategies for each of those campaign types. It's thousands ofpossible keywords that you can target. Probability law that's tens of thousandsof possible combinations here, and I will speak from experience here. Everyaccount is different. There's kind of like, there isn't really aone-size-fits-all solution. So really, it comes down to split testingeverything, and a good example of this is Performance max versus shopping,right? So P max being this kind of hybrid search, shopping, display, discoverycampaign that Google's been pushing on most of its advertisers. You guys havetalked about that on the pod before it works pretty well. I would say it'ssuccessful about 80 percent of the time. Um, in terms of like new customeracquisition, we're seeing better costs from P max, but still leaves that 20percent of accounts, which is a pretty significant number that are gettingbetter results from regular shopping. And. One of the ways that brands splittest this the most often is they'll run like a before and after experiment. Sothey'll run PMAX for a month and then they'll run regular shopping for a month.They'll take a look at the ROAS, they'll see which one performs better. Ofcourse, you know, you're not accounting for a bunch of different variables inthat. Seasonality, you know, whether or not you're running a sale, etc, etc.Many, many different factors that can play a role on the actual ROAS you'regetting from that campaign. As opposed to just the fact that it's PMAX versus shoppingitself. So one of the things that I push pretty heavily for on our end atGoogle is running experiments. So experiments, again, you guys have coveredthis on the pod, but this is like the bread and butter of optimizing a Googleaccount. You should be running experiments on literally everything. And thereason for that is it's the only way to run a truly statistically significant50 50 split test. With an experiment you're getting one user and then one userfor the Pmax versus shopping example. One user sent to the shopping campaign.One user sent to the performance max campaign. And then you'll be able toanalyze those results a lot easier once you actually get a significant amountof data coming in. There's tons of other experiments. It really is, in my mind,the only way to split test anything on Google. With that PMAX versus shoppingexample, very important to look at the GA4 results. Like I said, Google ispushing PMAX on us right now. The campaign inherently uses view attribution,which we all know and love as marketers. And So you'll see and need to


Eric: be aware of it or it can burn you


Rafael: if you're not taking it into account, right? Yeah, sowe've had PMAX campaigns that are spending a few thousand dollars a monthpaused those campaigns. They continue to get sales for like the next six toeight months afterwards. And it's like, is my PMAX campaign that I ran inSeptember of 2022 still generating incremental sales like eight months later?Probably not. But Google says it is. So it's You know, you want to like,measure that data first with a grain of salt, but also with like an alternativesource, um, and just have that context. Like when you're looking at theperformance, like you see that for ROAS from PMAX and it's compared to a 2. 0and regular shopping. Using GA4, it will usually paint a much more favorablepicture for regular shopping. So yeah, those are, those are kind of like thenuances of, of PMAX versus shopping.


Eric: But split testing is so important. One of the, one of thediscourse I hear, I've actually heard, uh, some people lately kind of trashingPMAX in the DTC Twitter sphere, saying that it's, it isn't working quite aswell as it is working for them. For us. So it's good to hear that it isworking, but I've also hear a lot of discourse about Google reps and how Googlereps are just, maybe we have the best Google rep. Maybe we have great Googlereps, but Google reps are often pushing the company narrative and not alwaysthey're thinking about how they make money, not as much about how you makemoney. And so that to me is where split testing really comes into effect,right? You can take advice from Google employees when they're telling you, uh,you know what you should do, but just always make sure that you have the datato back it up or, or they could, could waste some of your money.


Rafael: 100%. I think, I mean, every time I listen to a Googlerep, it always has to be with a bit of grain of salt. Like they're working fora for-profit company. Their goal is to kind of maximize your ad spend withoutdestroying your account. And, you know, typically we want to not destroyaccounts. We want to scale them up, um, in terms of revenue and ROAS. Yeah. Andthen the other part of that is absolutely like we always want to try to beproactive in tests because I mean, when PMAX first came on the scene,anecdotally, like I was seeing better results from it than what we've seen inthe last six months, it's been around for, you know, just over two years now, Ibelieve it's, um, and during that time they've, they've changed it so much,right? You know, they've added more search term data, they've added, you know,Asset group segmentation. So it's, it's very different than what it used to be.And in my mind, on average, it's performing a little bit worse. So really it'sjust split test over and over and over again. And that's, that's kind of themost important thing. So that was a lot of. Filler and, and not a ton ofkiller. So I want to


Eric: just with one, one, ki i I not, not, not to belabor thepoint, but can you give an example without maybe mentioning the client of asplit test. I know you're running these all the time, but like, gimme anexample of a, of a particularly effective or a split test that revealed apretty acute difference that allowed you to really optimize and scale acampaign.


Rafael: Yeah, 100%. So we have a jewelry brand. We were runningexclusively performance maxes. The day it was released practically, and we'reseeing great ROAS results. And then, you know, one of the things that we sawwas when we scaled up that PMAX spend, we're seeing really good revenue andplatform and still strong ROAS, but it wasn't backing out to Shopify Rev Lift.So our Shopify Rev wasn't increasing the same rate that our actual campaignrevenue was increasing. And that was like, kind of like my first flag, like,Okay, this isn't one to one like at the time the documentation on the viewattribution that Performance Max was claiming was fairly iffy. So we switchedto regular shopping, which had probably about a 30 to 40 percent lower ROAS.But when we're looking at the GA4 data, The new customer CPA on regularshopping was about 18 to 20 percent lower. So regular shopping was acquiring usnew customers for cheaper. It's just the ROAS in platform was inflated onperformance max. So by switching to regular shopping, we're able to acquirecustomers significantly cheaper at the exact same scale, and we're also hittinga better ROAS in GA4. And I've done that experiment with North beam as well.And again, we see pretty. Pretty similar results on average. it's just inplatform. Like you really got to be careful about that, that revenue and rowass that Pmax is claiming because it really looks like it inflates it quiteconsistently in my mind.


Eric: Incrementality is the name of the game and new customers,right? I feel like Pmax branded campaigns, which we're going to talk about in alittle bit, can be great at bringing. People that maybe otherwise would havebeen there anyway into the fold also good at at bringing maybe returningcustomers But when you really when you're focusing on incrementality and newcustomers, you got to distill those variables a bit


Rafael: 100 percent and like so this was kind of like a thoughtexperiment that I was reading about on X the other day And they were sayingthat because PMAX is like this hybridization of search, shopping, display, etcetera, it has the ability to serve somebody like a display banner ad that itknows will be a returning customer, right? Because you upload all your customerlists into Google. It knows how frequently people purchase, when they purchase.It can serve them like a 10 cent CPM display ad to a returning customer that itpredicts algorithmically is about to purchase, and boom, it claims credit forthat purchase. Just like that. What was the incrementality of that purchase?Probably nothing. Yet, when you're sitting back and analyzing your accounts,you're seeing, oh, six ROAS. Like, that's fantastic. Like, I need to scalethat. But it doesn't show you, like, the actual incrementality of, of what wentinto that purchase. It's still, a pretty big black box in my mind, like wherethe conversions actually came from. Like it's, it's hard to parse out whetherit was display search, like there's scripts that you can run to do so, but itis a little, that becomes a little bit more complex. So yeah, I, I am kind ofon the team of like. I don't enjoy using performance max because of the lack ofinsight and granularity it gives into the data. But I also understand that likesometimes like the data will call for that and that's why it's come back rightto the initial point here. So important to split test that, right? Like, It's,it's really the, a necessity I think for every account, especially when you'relooking at like something like Google shopping, like that is going to be themajority in most cases for brands. Like that's the majority of their nonbranded revenue is going to come from shopping.


Eric: Very cool. All right. We're going to, we are going totalk about branded search, but we've got a topic in between here. We're talkingabout the lack of awareness keywords. What do you mean by this?


Rafael: Yeah, 100%. So, I mean, again, like, what is Google?Like, particularly Google search, it's people asking questions. Like, they'renot necessarily looking to shop. And so, one of the things that we thoughtabout a lot is, like, how do we take advantage of kind of that questionoriented mindset as opposed to, like, a purchase oriented mindset with a payper click strategy? So Very standard Google strategy is you take your keyword,you send them to the product page, right?


Let's use an example, Mushroom Coffee. If you have a MushroomCoffee brand, you're going to target the keyword Mushroom Coffee, you're goingto send them to the product page. Those, using that example, uh, we have aMushroom Coffee brand, those are 5 to 6 clicks that don't convert very well.Because when somebody's in a shopping mall instead of on Google, they'reclicking around to a variety of brands, they're comparing price points, right?Et cetera, et cetera, price point, very important, um, on Google. So if youdon't have the best one, like a lot of the times you will struggle to convertwith that particular brand. We were really struggling to convert on themushroom coffee search. The clicks were extremely expensive. So we rethoughtthe strategy a little bit and we're like, why don't we go more upper funnel andinstead target people searching for what is lion's mane. The coffee was, um,use, it was a lion's mane mushroom coffee. And those clicks are 60 cents. Andso I started applying that strategy more and more to other brands because theawareness side of the keywords, it's almost, it's almost always about 50 to 60percent less for the actual clicks. Um, you do take a hit on intent because youcan't send somebody searching, what is Lion's Mane to a Lion's Mane coffee PDP,of course, right? They're looking to learn about, you know, Lion's Mane andthen simultaneously, if you can introduce them to your brand and convince themto maybe purchase your, your product, that's a win, but you can afford to takea hit to conversion, right? Because you're only paying a fraction for theactual clip itself. So it's more of a kind of nurturing strategy, right? Like,we're not trying to extract sales directly from the user, but we're trying tonurture them. Via brand awareness to eventually purchase our products. So withcampaigns like that, we still run purchase objective, but we'll test email,sign up objectives, time spent on page, et cetera, et cetera. And so we've beenable to scale up that mushroom coffee brand specifically quite a bit using someof those awareness keywords. Um, and just eventually it became the focal pointof our spend as opposed to those typical mushroom coffee keywords. We wententirely into awareness because I mean, with mushrooms specifically in thatindustry, tons of people want to learn about mushrooms, right? It's, it's ahuge fad at the moment. Everybody wants to have their, their Reishi and theirChaga and their lion's man in the morning. So there's a ton of search volume.We just needed to adjust the post click experience. So we started sending tosending them to blog pages that were also optimized for conversion. So. Itwould have, you know, explanatory paragraphs about what Lion's Mane is, thebenefits of it, why you should be taking it. And then there would be a salesypart at the end, but also an email signup. So even if we could get an emailsignup for like 40, 50 cents, we would be happy with that because their emaillist converts very well. And we were still able to hit almost an identical ROASto what we were getting previously with our mushroom coffee keywords. But thetraffic was so much higher intent. We're getting so many email signups for thebrand that it became worth it in the end. And so we started expanding that toother brands as well. Just moving more into the more, like, inexpensive upperfunnel awareness keywords away from kind of like those more middle of funnelkeywords. Saving a ton of money and building really strong brand awareness byjust using Google for what it does best, which is educate people, right?Because, When you're googling something like 95 percent of the time, like youdon't want to just be sent to a PDP, right? Like you're looking to learnsomething. You're looking to read, explore, etc, etc. So, um, yeah, just thatmindset shift has been huge, I think, for a lot of brands. Um, and then, ofcourse, it gets post click testing really heavily involved, which I know is abig part of Other paid platforms, but traditionally isn't as leveraged inGoogle, in my experience. So really by just like shifting that post clickjourney a little bit, um, I think sky's the limit really for, for what we cando moving forward. It's something that, you know, we've really just startedexploring over the last kind of six months here. Um, but it's been, I think, ahuge boost to almost all of the brands that we've been doing it for. And ofcourse there will be brands where there isn't as much people looking, likeusers looking for education about that specific product, but with industrieswhere there is, uh, it's a huge advantage.


Eric: You just get them in your funnel as opposed to trying toget them in your funnel while you're going against a hundred other mushroomcoffee brands. You know, you get them in your funnel for this and then youeither get their email, you know, maybe the Facebook, maybe you're getting themon Facebook, maybe, you know, they're, they're in your funnel at that point.And there's a lot, it's a different game that point than when you're competingon that 8 keyword right off the hop.


Rafael: A hundred percent. And like, what's, what's the brandawareness when. Somebody just clicks, goes to your PDP, is like, meh, tooexpensive, bounces. Like, are they really going to know your brand movingforward? Are they likely to search, search you again? Most, in my mind, like,most likely not. But if you've educated them while subtly slipping in, like,why your brand is the best version of this, then in my mind, you've, you'vebuilt a positive image of your brand in that user's mind, which, I mean, youknow, brands pay millions of dollars to do that. So, um, yeah, definitely likeimportant part of the puzzle, I think


Eric: it's, and to bring it back to the very beginning, itsounds like the master splinter approach where you want to teach first, youwant to teach, impart your lesson, impart your wisdom so that the turtles keepcoming back to your particular sewer.


Rafael: And I don't want to say that I've gotten like all of mymedia buying experience from TMNT, but


Eric: yeah,


Rafael: You know, it has valuable lessons to impart, I think.


Eric: All right. Now speak, I just got off a conversationactually with, uh, and uh, Cam from Hexclad is going to be on the podcast andhe's specific. One of the things he wanted to talk about was how brands areoverspending on branded search. And I know if you go back on our podcast, we'vetalked a lot about the value of bidding on branded keywords and having that bePart of your campaign, but Cameron was just telling me about a, a brand and itwasn't hex cloud. It was a brand he worked with before where they were spendingso much on branded search. When he kind of came in and started working withthem, he advised that they take off all their branded search, put hot jar onthe website. And he found that something like 80 percent of the spend that wasgoing into that branded search campaign was people. Was previous customerstrying to log into their website? So it was just a perfect crystal clearexample of how if you're not watching and really segmenting out how much you'respending on branded keywords, it can, the system will allow that to take overand really overspend. What are you seeing with


Rafael: that? The right answer to that question is like, shouldwe be spending on branded search? It depends, right? Like you have to dive intothe data. Um, In general though, of those accounts I'm auditing every year, Iwould say that like, probably 80 percent of them are overspending on brandedsearch. And, it's super easy for a brand to measure. So like, this is anothervery simple experiment that every brand should be running. Especially because,Again, of these accounts that I'm auditing, the vast majority of them, theirhighest spending campaign every single time is branded search. And so thinkabout like what a branded search is first of all, right? It's somebody typingin your brand name, of course. And then that first result on the Google page isgoing to be a branded ad. The vast majority of the time, if your SEO is verygood, you will own those two to three organic listings underneath that brandedad. So why are we in those situations where there's no competition and you havevery strong SEO? Maybe you're not running on Amazon because Amazon's beensneaking into the organic listings lately. Why are we spending money on an adthat people will just click the free version of directly below? Now, thingschange when there's competition on your branded ads. So if you have a brandcalled Brand X and then Brand Y is bidding on those keywords, you don't wanttheir ad to show instead of yours. In situations like that, you're going towant to spend on brand. But how much do we spend on brand? That's. That's thereally important question, uh, for us to ask ourselves as Google marketers. Andhow we can determine that is, say you're spending 10, 000 a month on brandedsearch, pull back to 5, 000 month one, and then watch what happens to GA4organic revenue. So GA4 will segment all revenue into buckets. It's very goodat tracking Google revenue specifically, that's good at tracking meta andTikTok and all those other platforms. But it's very accurate for Google. So wecan trust that data. When you pull back on branded spend, immediately what mostagencies will see is their in-platform branded search revenue going down. Thatmakes total sense, right? You're showing branded ads less, you are nowgenerating less revenue through that branded ad. But what you'll see the vastmajority of the time is that organic revenue is ticking upwards with the, tothe exact same degree that you're losing the in-platform revenue. And why isthat? It's because people are typing in your brand, there's no branded adthere. They're going to the next listing below, which is the organic listing,which is the free listing, that's not going to cost you any money. They'reclicking on that and they're converting when you're typing in a brand and evenif there's a competitor there, like if you're wanting to buy Nike shoes, forexample, you type in Nike shoes and then all of a sudden like Hoka comes out ofnowhere with an ad, like. Are you that likely to purchase a Hoka shoe in thatmoment when they just send you straight to their PDP or straight to theirhomepage? Perhaps, but like less likely than you are to just click on that Nikeorganic listing and purchase. So that's the experiment that we run again on, onpretty much every brand that we have is slowing down the organic, the brandedspend, seeing what happens to the organic revenue. You know, nine times out of10, like brands could use a 20 to 30 percent branded spend cutback. And theGoogle algorithm is really good, right? So it's like, if you're using automatedbidding and you say, okay, I want to, I only want to bid on the likeliest topurchase consumers. And then everybody else is, you know, I don't, I don'treally want to waste branded spend on that. It can hit those ROAS numbers foryou very effectively. Um, Um, so yeah, that's, that's the really important partis just pull back on branded spend, especially if it's like the vast majorityof your account spend, see what happens on an organic revenue. Like the vastmajority of the time you'll see that it's not making a difference on your guys'sbottom line. You're getting that revenue regardless and you've just beenoverspending on, on branded search. Now, when that can change is. It's, youknow, Amazon is a big one these days. Amazon has really upped their Google adspend in the last year. So what we're seeing now is that if you're not spendingmoney on branded search, people will filter through to your Amazon listings,right? So it's a bit of a push and pull and you'll have to like experiment withmaybe like five to 15 different spend levels and see which one is most optimalfor your brand. Relative to all the other competition in the niche.


Eric: What about with PMAX? Because I understand if you don'ttake branded search out of PMAX, it can come to be a big part of your PMAXcampaigns as well. What's your position on branded search in your PMAXcampaigns?


Rafael: Just something you have to test. Google released likesix months ago the ability to negate branded keywords in PMAX. It's somethingthat I like to do because With all of Google, you get pretty good insight intothe search terms that your campaigns are showing ads for, right? So like, youhave a campaign, a branded campaign, you can see exactly which terms are comingin. For that example that you just quoted, like people searching, like, thelogin page, like, that is a big no no. Like, you usually want to have, like,login, like, change password, you know. Uh, contact, a lot of that time, likeyou don't want to spend money on those searches. With PMAX though, it's alittle bit more, uh, nuanced because it only gives you like roughly 30 to 40percent of the actual search queries that people are typing into Google. Thatmeans like 60 percent of the searches that PMAX is spending on. It's a bigquestion mark, right? So it could be brand, could be non brand, it could bedisplay placements. It's impossible to know. So I tend to like adding thosenegatives to my PMAX campaigns purely from a data granularity perspective. Thatway when I'm analyzing campaigns, I can say, these are my branded campaigns.These are my non branded campaigns. I have that clarity and kind of finalitywhen I look at those. With PMAX having branded in it, you just don't get that,right? PMAX will do the exact same thing. Like it will serve on branded searchregardless. And then, worsely, like, it'll make it so that you don't know howmuch you're exactly spending on branded search, right? Because it is that blackbox, PMAX spends 10, 000 a month. It could be anywhere from 3, 000 to like 9,000 if that 10, 000 spend is actually going towards branded search. And youjust don't know. So when you're doing these kind of spend experiments, it wouldbe important to have those branded negatives added to the PMAX campaigns.Purely so you can make just like more better calls on the data that you'reactually getting.


Eric: Super cool. So many, you know, usable tips here. I reallythink that the awareness keywords one is one every listener should really go inand do a little whiteboarding exercise on how do you go further up the streamto try to capture that intent and awareness earlier. Uh, great triumphantreturn to the podcast today, Raph.


Rafael: Yeah, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I'll be back,I'm sure, you know.


Eric: Yeah, it's been a long time coming. You got to become aregular now. You're in Lima right now. You're in Lima, Peru. You're on theother side of the continent. What's it like down there?


Rafael: Oh my god, it's beautiful. Yeah, I know. Anybodylooking for a beach vacation, uh, you got to come down to Peru. Machu Picchu,you know, very cool as well. Machu Picchu. Yeah, it was, it was unreal, youknow. The altitude though was tough. I, uh, Yeah. Took a few client calls. Andit was just extremely out of breath and I was asked multiple times, like, wereyou just exercising? I'm like, nope, just, uh, this is my resting heart ratenow.


Eric: I'm at Machu Picchu. Drop that. Show a little, show alittle with it.


Rafael: That was actually the client call with the Machu Picchuin the background. No cell reception funnily enough up there.


Eric: So fair enough. Nice, man. Well, great to see you again,and we'll see you again soon. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me, Eric, andchat soon here.


Eric: Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you're notgetting the D2C newsletter, you can subscribe for free at if you want to learn more about Pilot House's all killer, no fillerservices, take off to I'm Eric Dick, and this has been the D2Cpodcast. We'll see you next time.

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